Tune in to Antifolk Siblings Toby Goodshank
and Angela Carlucci
Toby Goodshank and Angela Carlucci are two of the most talented folks around in oh so many ways—art, baking, music—and so damn sweet. Toby’s been a member of The Moldy Peaches, The Tri-Lambs, and The Christian Pirate Puppets, Angela’s been in The Baby Skins, Little Cobweb, and True Dreams. Together they form Double Deuce. I emailed them a little while back to see if they’d be interested in having a conversation between the two of them published in Boog City, about life, about growing up together, about music, about art, about friends, about family, about New York, about covid, about art and life in a post-covid world, about whatever they wanted. Let’s listen in. —editor
Angela and Toby pose with Ewok in Stamford, Conn., year unknown.
Angela: It’s recording now?
Toby: Yeah! We’re at Anally Restaurant, in Williamsborg. Oh I’m sorry, Anal Leak restaurant.
A: That was embarrassing. Embarrassing that you mispronounced it the first time.
T: I know! I’m embarrassed. What do you think you’ll get?
A: A drink?
T: A diaper?
A: A drink.
A: Ew! What was that?
T: It’s on your glass.
A: They did smell like hand sanitizer when they walked over. (Passes hand sanitizer to Toby) That’s straight up rubbing alcohol.
T: Like Purple Organ!
T: You think you’ll get a drink?
A: Do you know what you’re gonna get?
T: I’m not sure. I had fun with the fries last time.
A: Yeah, those were good.
T: Would you have some again?
T: Are you hungee?
A: Just a little bit.
T: Should we get a pizza?
A: I would probably eat one slice, I don’t know if that makes it worth it. You could get like a meaty pizza.
T: That wouldn’t make it worth it.
‘We had a car, a Toyota Tercel, that had a big trunk and backseat area, and our parents would put the back seats down and fill the back with blankets and pillows so Toby and I could just play, and we’d put our toys in there and have the best time the whole way.’
A: Sorry, I shouldn’t have eaten that burrito.
T: What abouta burrata?
A: Mmm that sounds good! That’s not enough for your dinner, though.
T: And fries. Burrata and fries, it’s a classic combo. Are you gonna get a wine?
A: I think I’m gonna get a cocktail, Pedal to the Metal.
T: Mmm. Is that what it’s called, or is that how you want this interview to go?
A: That’s what it’s called. Maybe I want it to go (unintelligible).
T: Go tits up?
The Metropolis Opera Houses preceding an English translation of Mozart’s Skin Flute, winter 2019.
A: Titsa. What are you gonna get? Beer?
T: (Whining) Yeah, maybe a Peroni.
A: Thanks for picking me up from work-
T: Of course!
A: -that’s so nice of you.
T: Sorry that your glass has a weird thing on it.
A: Oh it’s fine, I don’t need it anyway.
T: Boog City readers, Angela’s glass, for the record, has a weird dusty dick-print on it. Fingerprint on it. Thumb print. It’s dusty.
A: What do you think we should do? Do you wanna ask each other a couple questions, or?
T: I guess so? David wanted us to include everybody, like to not be insular sibling-talk?
A: David wants us to speak with you, not at you.
T: I thought that we thought that we could ask a lot of-
‘My coworker Bernice today was asking a lot of questions about you … and she said, ‘You and Toby are so talented.’ And I said, ‘Well, thank you! But, it’s really just that I have always copied Toby, so anything he liked and wanted to do I just did it too.’
Both T&A: Questions. What are you?
T: No you can’t do that, cuz you can’t transcribe that right.
A: I just wanted it to seem like we had our own language!
A: Twin minds, activate!
T: Twin lines.
A: Sometimes I feel like Toby’s my twin.
T: Sometimes… Really?
A: Sometimes, yeah! Cuz we look very much alike and-
T: I don’t think that, even though we have photographic evidence.
A: No. We only look alike when we’re looking at Toby’s face upside-down and he’s smiling.
T: Wow, that’s right.
A: But we can’t talk about that now.
T: We shan’t.
A: Do you have a question for me? Or I was
At Otto’s for variety show, 2019.
thinking of some for you.
T: I thought questions just for the audience to mull over.
T: Nah that really wouldn’t work, though.
A: A question for them?
T: Yeah, and then they could write their responses in the next Boog City.
A: That would be cool! It has to be something juicy so they really want to write.
T: Is it Boog City Anniversary?
A: Yayyyyy. Happy Anniversary!
T: Happy Anniversary Boog City! We love you.
A: We love you.
T: Oh my gosh.
‘Some days are harder than others. We’ve been very lucky so far. Have our health and whatnot. I feel like there will be a lifelong reckoning with the psychic damage of 230,000 people dying and climbing, just here. I think it’s something we’ll be dealing with on a cellular level while trying to go through our lives and do normal things. We’re traumatized. I think we’re probably in like a collective shock?’
A: I’m so used to TJ’s cocktails, where there’s some kind of fancy garnish.
T: Yeah, that looks boring. Oh here’s what we could talk about, Boog City. I started watching The Crown.
A: I don’t know what that is.
T: It’s a Netflix show about the Royal Fambly.
A; Oh. Like a documentary, or? (laughs)
T: (pouring beer until mug overflows onto table, laughing)I don’t know why I can’t stop doing this! Stop me before I kill again.
A: (laughing) Stop! What? You’re a madman!
T: (whining) I don’t know why.
A: You don’t want the bottle anymore, is what I think was happening in his brain.
T: (cleaning table with napkins) It’s a race to mop it up. Goo goo!
A: Just let it fall. Wow, it’s really at the tippity-top, it’s not even at the top, it’s like bubbling over just a tad.
T: Y’all know how we do.
A: That was crazy, I’ve never seen you be so reckless before.
T: I had a long day.
A; Oh, I’m sorry.
T: Down goes the mask, everybody. And in goes the brown-
A: – Happy Anniversary.
T: Happy Anniversary!
T: (laughing maniacally)
A: Oh my lord.
T: David says he was gonna preemptively title this article, “Double Dud.”
A: David! Trickster! Okay, so we have a question for the audience: Do you also watch The Crown, the show I’ve never heard of?
T: If so, do you enjoy The Crown, or do you not like
Some dive bar in NYC with a photo booth, date unknown.
A: We can’t talk about that, cuz I’ve never seen it.
T: New subject! Did you read Black Hole yet?
A: No. Sorry.
T: That’s OK. I like your mask.
A: Thank you, Magali gave it to me.
‘I feel like there are Wu Tang lyrics and stuff, a treasure trove of what seemed at first like random references, but the more you listen to the more you can decipher. It’s also maybe sad that my mind is so stuck in early ’90s rap. I’m deciphering it like it’s Shakespeare.’ —Toby
T: Magali gave Angela a cute little quilty-mask. Oh! There’s lambs on the inside of the mask. So cute!
A: OK, I have a question for you! What was your favorite part of summer growing up?
T: We grew up in a rural town called Newtown, Conn., and it had a lotta lush forest, and a lotta nice big lawns to play on. And I liked being outside in our yard and being on the swingset together, and hanging out. Just hanging out! Sometimes in the evenings we would play badminton with our parents and that was fun.
A: I liked when we got into a routine where we would play badminton outside together. Our dad had to commute to work about 45 minutes to an hour, and when he got home from work he would always play with us, which was so nice. He really must have been tired but he didn’t show it.
T: Yeah, very fun. I liked going into our decrepit tool shed even though there was nothing in there. I guess we kept our bikes in there after a while but there was like a snow speeder. A snow speeder? Is that what it’s called? A snow –
A: A snow mobile?
T: A snow mobile?
A: I don’t know, but I remember wanting to play on it. That’s funny that we kept it!
T: Yeah, I think it was so huge that no one wanted to, fuckin’, and so dirty. It wasn’t like dad had a buncha tools, so fuck it.
A: And there was that cool tool section in our basement!
T: Yeah, the basement was cool until it flooded.
A: Well I loved all that about summer too, and I think just playing outside for what seemed like all day. Playing in the woods. So fun! We just explored a lot, it was nice.
‘I just feel like I’ve tried so many things that I’m like, “Maybe I should’ve just stuck with one thing! I would have been a rich, successful person! If only I was a crocheter.’ —Angela
T: Yeah, it was great. Very nice childhood.
A: I was thinking I really liked our family vacations. We’d go on these long weekend trips, probably because it was affordable. We would go to Great Barrington, Mass., cuz our parents liked to go antiquing and they liked to go to restaurants and stuff. But not in a fancy way, in like a normal way. And what seems like it wouldn’t be fun for kids, I think our parents were really good at making everything fun.
A: So like, it was SO fun! We had the best time! We had a car, a Toyota Tercel, that had a big trunk and backseat area, and our parents would put the back seats down and fill the back with blankets and pillows so Toby and I could just play, and we’d put our toys in there and have the best time the whole way.
T: It was so fun! You should have a fry while they’re toasty.
A: The antique stores would always have children’s sections with creepy old toys that we thought were fun, and penny candies which were delicious.
T: It was so fun. I still like going to Great Barrington as an adult.
A: Yeah, I’d like to go as an adult.
T: We should go.
A: We have a delicious fancy mayo.
Queens County Farm Museum Autumn Dance Celebration the day Biden/Harris were declared winners, 2020.
T: That’s Oali.
T: We made a song recently. (Mouth full) We recorded two!
A: Oh the new-new one?
‘I like my lineage. As far as being a creative person? Oh my gosh. I feel like there’s a lil’ Ween going on. A lot of heavy metal and hip-hop. I guess I’ve always identified with punk stuff, even though I’d be too much of a wuss to hang out with actual punks in the ’70s. I like their way.’ —Toby
T: Well, no. I was talking about the one that will be on my solo album and then the one that we released for the vote.
A: Yeah. We’re trying to be relevant. Just kidding. Oh, my coworker Bernice today was asking a lot of questions about you, about being such a good artist, and was asking me about our mom cuz she knew she was an artist. And that was fun to talk about. And she said, “You and Toby are so talented.” And I said, “Well, thank you! But, it’s really just that I have always copied Toby, so anything he liked and wanted to do I just did it too.”
T: That’s not true.
A: It is! That’s how I know about all cool music and –
T: That might have been true in 1990, but now it’s 2020 y’all. Angela toots her own horn-drum. She walks to the toot of her own drum.
A: No toot.
T: Oh, there’s a toot.
A: What else? What questions were you thinking? One for the audience?
T: I dunno, I guess that doesn’t really work cuz how do they tell us?
A: Maybe they have to write to AM New York and it’ll be like a Jean Shepherd kind of a thing where they flood AM New York and people will be like, “What is this all about? 2,000 people that read Boog City all wrote in.”
T: Jean Shepherd’s Night People! I was thinking about that gift you gave me today of all his radio shows?
A: Oh yeah!
T: So cool.
A: I keep thinking of Double Dud. It’s making me all verklempt. Now what did David say in his original email? Should I just reread it? It was inspiring to read his words.
A: No really, the first time he wrote.
A: No, the first time he wrote this time around and asked to do this.
T: You felt inspired?
A: Yeah! I responded right away without even asking you. Which you loved! I’m gonna read it.
A: Cuz it was like, “Tell us your deepest darkest fear.”
T: My deepest darkest fears.
A: (Reading email) “I was wondering if you two would be interested in having a conversation between the two of you published in Boog City. About life, about growing up together, about music, about art, about friends, about family, about New York, about covid, about art and life in a post-covid world, about whatever you want.”
T: Should we go down the list?
A: Sure! Life. (Singing “I Like Life” from the Scrooge original motion picture soundtrack) I like life! Life likes me!
T: (Singing) Life and I fairly fully agree!
A: (Singing) Eating food!
T: (Singing) Drinking things!
Both T & A: (singing unintelligibly) Why? Because I like life! See how much we like life!
A: The end!
T: What else?
A: That’s a movie we love.
T: Albert Finney, in the musical Scrooge.
A: That shaped us very much so.
T: Way more than any of these people.
A: People? How do you feel about the world post-Covid? I mean, I know we’re not post, but –
T: Some days are harder than others. We’ve been very lucky so far. Have our health and whatnot. I feel like there will be a lifelong reckoning with the psychic damage of 230,000 people dying and climbing, just here. I think it’s something we’ll be dealing with on a cellular level while trying to go through our lives and do normal things. We’re traumatized. I think we’re probably in like a collective shock?
A: Yeah, I think so. I saw Kendall yesterday. My friend Kendall was stuck in London for the whole lockdown. I was asking her how it was, and she was like, “In retrospect, it’s funny, I always say ‘It was fine,’ cuz it was fine,” she’s like, “but I know that it actually wasn’t. I think it was a coping mechanism. I can’t remember a lot of it, the days blur together.” And I feel the same way, I think that must be a collective trauma, a collective way of coping with all of that weirdness and scariness.
T: Yeah, 100%. On a very selfish level I miss seeing live music.
A: Me too!
T: And being in groups of friends.
A: Me too! I miss seeing friends at shows. Running into people all night, and knowing you could go somewhere, and who would be there, and all the friendly happy faces you’d see, and like even if I wasn’t having the best day, it was so nice too, you know? I mean definitely in the Sidewalk years, but post-Sidewalk too, it would be like, I’m gonna go to Toby’s show and it will be amazing to see and hear his music and I know I’ll get a hug from him, I know maybe Phoebe and Matt will be there, and we’ll joke around, and –
A: Breadfoot’ll be there. And the countless friends, like the Kelly Family and Dan Fishback, and –
A: Kessel. David K.
T: Lauren Echo.
A: Yeah I miss that too. Sense of community, and it’s really weird and scary trying to navigate being out with friends now, you know. Seeing a friend for a walk for an hour where you’re wearing masks most of the time is great on a hot summer day, but then now it’s getting into colder weather and it’s hard to navigate hangouts.
T: Well the mask is actually nice in the colder weather!
A: Yeah I think so too! And I like it cuz I used to, in the winter, when it was really cold, I would always wanna cover my face with my scarf, but then people kinda look at you like you’re being a drama queen.
T: Bazooka Joe.
A; And then you get to kinda sing and say whatever you want under your mask when you’re walking.
T: It’s true.
A: Not say whatever you want in a creepy way.
T: (Singing “I Hate People” from the Scrooge original motion picture soundtrack) I hate people!
A: I like your outfit Toby! Toby’s wearing a very smart outfit. A black undershirt with a nice dark denim button-down. Your Ben Wood jacket.
T: I’m wearin’ my Heattech.
A: Oh nice! Does that really work?
T: Yeah, they’re like thermals.
A: Is it from Uniqlo?
T: It is from Uniqlo.
A: What is it, the shirt and everything?
T: Well I got the long johns on, I got the whole ensemble.
A: What’s the denim shirt?
T: Oh a Levi’s denim shirt? I’m wearing what’s known as the Kentucky—not the Kentucky—the fuckin’ Canadian …
T: Party hat.
A: I wondered if your shirt was Heattech. The black one.
T: Oh yeah.
A: Oh do you have a lot of Heattech stuff?
T: Just these two pieces and the socks.
A: Did you get them for a special reason, like tour or something?
T: Just winter, I’ve had ‘em since last year.
A: Here’s a question for you. I was trying to describe to TJ the other day, do you have any songs that have been stuck in your head for years? Like a song that your brain just goes to when there’s empty space?
T: No. Not so much, but I definitely like, there are like rap songs from childhood that I still occasionally decipher a new lyric that I didn’t understand for like, whatever, 25 years?
A: Whoa, that’s crazy. Is it because it’s like an adult topic?
T: Not necessarily, just like going through life and vocabulary broadening. And sometimes I feel like hip-hop has a lot of pop culture references and sometimes you just don’t know the reference.
A: Totally. That happened to us watching a lot of movies growing up. Back to the Beach. We just understood that line a couple years ago, Cuervo Gold.
T: It sounded like he asked the stewardess for a “Coowaybrual Goo.”
A: But we thought that was so funny!
T: Yeah, he’s like a surrealist punk. “How ‘bout a Coowaybrual Goo?!”
A: But what songs were you thinking of?
T: I dunno. I think about old Redman lyrics a lot.
A: Could you tell the audience or the readers?
T: In the song “Can’t Wait.” He says, “Word to Dantan, Pillow, and Cool D, switchin’ speeds like Bruce Lee ridin’ the Fuji in the movie.” So he’s shouting out a bunch of people: Dantan, Pillow? And Cool D? “Switchin’ speeds like Bruce Lee ridin’ the Fuji in the movie.” I, a) hadn’t seen enough Bruce Lee movies to know if there’s a movie where he rides what I’m assuming is a motorcycle? I have no idea what he’s talking about. And then at the end of the song, the beat’s still going, and he stopped rapping and he’s like, “I said switchin’ speeds like Bruce Lee riding the Fuji in the movie,” and then he says something like, “If you don’t get it, laugh now and then figure that shit out when you get home,” or something like that.
A: Whoa, weird.
T: To this day I have no idea what he’s talking about, but I think about that all the time.
A: Does anyone respond?
T: Does anyone respond?!
A: Yeah is he recording it in a booth?
T: Yeah, but he’s probably the only one in the sound booth.
A: But maybe the engineers are like, “Yeah, ha ha ha ha.”
T: Everyone was so high!
A: We gotta find that reference! That’s funny cuz I was just thinking I should rewatch some Bruce Lee movies.
T: I just watched Fist of Fury?[is the question mark because you’re unsure if it was fist of fury? If so I’d do it like this—I just watched [I think it was] Fist of Fury.]
A: Oh yeah.
T: The antagonist in it is a dude named Suzuki. And I was like “Suzuki!” That’s what he’s talking about! Bruce Lee riding the Suzuki in the movie. But that’s not what he fuckin’ says! I don’t think that’s even what he’s referencing. What is it that they’re riding? I think I was way off, but I was tripping out for a second.
A: I love that you put it together.
T: Not quite.
A: Could it be a reference to Mt. Fuji? Is he climbing Mt. Fuji in a movie?
T: Riding the Fuji. It might be nonsense.
T: I feel like there are Wu Tang lyrics and stuff, a treasure trove of what seemed at first like random references, but the more you listen to the more you can decipher. It’s also maybe sad that my mind is so stuck in early ’90s rap. I’m deciphering it like it’s Shakespeare.
A: ’90s rap is kind of the best, right? That’s why people are rapping now. In that Michael Jordan documentary, there’s so much ’90s hip-hop happening, I told you this …
T: I think I heard “Scenario”? The Tribe Called Quest song?
A: Played it when, like during a game?
T: I dunno, it was like the first episode.
A: I don’t remember, sorry. Anyway it’s a bad story, but when the music starts in the show it’s so much more exciting!
A: But you shouldn’t put what I said about rap in there, because I don’t know what I’m talking about.
T: I dunno, you’re a person who listens to music. You can talk about music.
A: I brought you a muffin.
T: You brought me a muffin? That’s so sweet! What kind?
A: Mozzarella tomato basil.
A: It’s a new one!
T: Awesome, Thank you!
A: You’re welcome!
T: Angela’s a masterful baker! By the way.
A: What else? Does being Italian mean anything to you? Or Greek?
T: Well, I’m proud to be both Italian and Greek. I dunno!
A: I’m proud, too.
T: I like Fellini. And Francis Ford Coppola. Sofia Coppola. Pacino. DeNiro.
A: Yeah, I do like Italian culture and food and music and art. The language is cool. And because we both make art, I think it’s cool. It’s like the epicenter of all that. I was only there once, but it’s crazy to be there. I’m sorry if I said something that didn’t make sense.
T: No that makes sense! Yeah, it’s super cool. It’s nice in any artistic sense to sort of contextualize what your creative lineage is, be it your, you know, DNA or, nurture? It’s pretty neat. It’s a good way to feel good about being an artist. Try to figure out where on the spectrum you are, I guess? What do you think about that? Like where do you see what you do in relation to what has come before?
A: Ah, I’ve never thought about that before.
T: Start with music.
A: I mean, I’m just riffing on things that have already been done, I haven’t thought of anything new.
T: Well …
A: I’m inspired by so many things.
T: You’re making your own things.
A: Oh thanks. I mean I’m making my own things, but I’m not making anything that hasn’t been done before.
T: Yes you are!
A: Oh thanks!
T: Everyone puts their own twist on things, some put more of a twist than others.
A: That’s true, I do think we’re all special and unique and we all have our own thing. There’s only one you, don’t let anyone tell you different.
T: That’s right. Even Mr. Rogers was afraid to tell you that.
A: He was?! I thought he said it all the time!
T: He was like, “There’s two yous. Don’t get it twisted. Sweater. Sweater. Two yous.”
A: I’ve never been the kind of person who thinks about the future very much, I always just think, “I trust it will work out, I think it’ll work out.” And for the most part it has cuz what else, are things gonna fall to shambles?
T: They could!
A: I do try real hard at a lot of things I do. But I think about, “Oh shoot, should I be thinking about the future more? I shouldn’t have had so many interests”. Cuz I’m the kind of person, I love to learn, so if someone starts talking about how they crochet, and making this and that, it’s inspiring and I’m like, “I gotta learn how to crochet!” And then I’ll learn that, but I just learn a little bit.
T: But you learn enough to know if you wanna keep doing it or not.
A: That’s true, I just feel like I’ve tried so many things that I’m like, “Maybe I should’ve just stuck with one thing! I would have been a rich, successful person! If only I was a crocheter.
T: It’s good to live your life, you know, go where your heart takes you.
A: Yeah I’m not regretful in any way I just think, “Oh, should I start paying more attention now?” That’s what made me think of your question. What about you, how do you see your lineage?
T: I like my lineage. As far as being a creative person? Oh my gosh. I feel like there’s a lil’ Ween going on. A lot of heavy metal and hip-hop. I guess I’ve always identified with punk stuff, even though I’d be too much of a wuss to hang out with actual punks in the ’70s. I like their way.
A: Me too. I feel the same way.
T: Art-wise, I dunno. Easter time? Vintage Easter postcards? Comic books. Those’re more things I like than things I feel like I come from.
A: I don’t wanna be too cheesy or anything, but I’m so lucky you’re my brother.
T: Oh my gosh. A: I feel so grateful every single day that you understand me and we have the same background and understand each other and I can joke with you all the time and talk to you for real advice and you always have a perfect thing to say.
T: Likewise! What kind of advice do you need now, my son?
A: I need to know what kind of cracker pairs well with Fumunda Cheese.
T: Ew! Touche, my friend. Well, I think the same about you.
A: Thank you.
T: Thank you. We’re very very lucky. Angela and I have some new Double Deuce songs coming atcha, not at the Boogfest unfortunately, but coming atcha semi-soonish, and that’s what’s up.
A: Thanks for having us, David.
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Toby Goodshank and Angela Carlucci are a brotherly sister duo that sangs songs with a guitar on top!